Andrzej, i jeszcze pytanie z nieco innej beczki. Przed oficjalnym wybuchem wojny pomiędzy Hiszpanią z jednej a Chile i Peru z drugiej strony w 1865 (z Chile) i 1866 (Peru) roku, wszystkie te państwa miały zamówione okręty w W. Brytanii. Hiszpanie pancerniki Vittoria i Arapiles, Chilijczycy korwety Chacabuco i O'Higgins a Peruwiańczycy pancerniki Independencia i Huascar. Te dwa ostatnie okręty zdołały opuścić W. Brytanię przed oficjalnym wypowiedzeniem wojny, pozostałe jednak zostały internowane. Działania wojenne pomiędzy walczącymi stronami wygasły jeszcze w 1866 roku, ale stan wojny się utrzymywał i okręty pozostawały internowane. To sprawiło (chęć odzyskania okrętów za które już zapłacono, przynajmniej częściowo), że Chile i Hiszpania o pokoju zaczęły rozmawiać już w 1867 roku. Ponieważ jednak sojusznikiem Chile było Peru, koniecznym było uzyskanie ich zgody a Peruwiańczycy do zawarcia pokoju się nie kwapili. Ostatecznie Chilijczycy postanowili dogadać się bez ich zgody i 6 stycznia 1868 roku zawarli porozumienie z Hiszpanami i rządem brytyjskim co do zwolnienia wspomnianych okrętów (i zawarcia zawieszenia broni, co było niezbędnym warunkiem). Ponieważ jednak cena obu korwet wynosiła 137 tys. funtów szterlingów a cena obu pancerników 540 tys. funtów, Chilijczycy uzyskali dodatkowo możliwość zakupu w Wielkiej Brytanii okrętów lub uzbrojenia na sumę 403 tys. funtów. I tu pojawia się pytanie jak te pieniądze wykorzystali - czy czasem nie zamówili za nie dwóch pancerników wieżowych, które później przejęła Turcja (Imperium Otomańskie) i wcieliła do swej floty pod nazwami Lütf-ü Celil i Hifz-ur Rahman?
Daty by się zgadzały (stępki obu jednostek położono wkrótce potem) i wszystko razem łączyłoby się w jedną logiczną całość. Chilijczycy tych okrętów za bardzo nie potrzebowali po zawarciu zawieszenia broni z Hiszpania, ale zamówili je, bo "tak wyszło" - więc pozbyli się ich chętnie przy pierwszej okazji. Wiesz coś na ten temat? Moim zdaniem to bardzo ciekawa historia.
Na górę
Chincha Islands War = Wojna Chile i Peru z Hiszpanią
Chincha Islands War = Wojna Chile i Peru z Hiszpanią
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Chincha Islands War = Wojna Chile i Peru z Hiszpanią
No i?
A ilustracja to skąd? Jeszcze jej nie widziałem.
A ilustracja to skąd? Jeszcze jej nie widziałem.
Chincha Islands War = Wojna Chile i Peru z Hiszpanią
Exposition maritime internationale 1868 - Le Havre.
Jeden zz wiekszych (ale nie jedyny) blad w ksiazce Langensiepena.
Jeden zz wiekszych (ale nie jedyny) blad w ksiazce Langensiepena.
Stocznia Forges et chantiers de la Gironde powstala w 1882 roku
Zamowiny 1867
Polozenie stepki 1868
Wodowanie 1869 (jak widac powyzej te okrety byly juz w 1868 na wystawie)
Testy 1870 (Levant Herald z 21 kwietnia 1869 podaje ze okrety przybyly do Bosforu)
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Chincha Islands War = Wojna Chile i Peru z Hiszpanią
Memoria de Marina 1868. Chile (tlumaczenie google)
Since the war with Spain broke out, the Government has tried very hard to equip the Republic Squad with strong warships capable of serving effectively in the event of a combat with the naval forces of that nation. To achieve this purpose, he has not omitted errands or sacrifices; but circumstances unfavorable to the acquisition of elements of warfare inherent to the state of war have posed serious and almost invincible obstacles to its realization. One of the latest negotiations for the construction of two monitors, which seemed to meet certain conditions of success, has had an unfortunate end. The contract for the acquisition of these ships was signed with a French builder, M. Arman, advantageously known at the time that the contract was signed and with a background that favored him as an entrepreneur in the construction of the Chilean frigate. Unfortunately, the complications that arose in the businesses of the contractor Arman, prevented him from complying with what was agreed and deprived our navy of two monitors which would have reinforce it, causing in turn an irreparable loss of time.
Since the war with Spain broke out, the Government has tried very hard to equip the Republic Squad with strong warships capable of serving effectively in the event of a combat with the naval forces of that nation. To achieve this purpose, he has not omitted errands or sacrifices; but circumstances unfavorable to the acquisition of elements of warfare inherent to the state of war have posed serious and almost invincible obstacles to its realization. One of the latest negotiations for the construction of two monitors, which seemed to meet certain conditions of success, has had an unfortunate end. The contract for the acquisition of these ships was signed with a French builder, M. Arman, advantageously known at the time that the contract was signed and with a background that favored him as an entrepreneur in the construction of the Chilean frigate. Unfortunately, the complications that arose in the businesses of the contractor Arman, prevented him from complying with what was agreed and deprived our navy of two monitors which would have reinforce it, causing in turn an irreparable loss of time.
Chincha Islands War = Wojna Chile i Peru z Hiszpanią
Historia de la República de Chile
La búsqueda de un orden republicano. 1826- 1881. Volumen 2. Segunda parte
2019
(Tlumaczenie google)
Paragraph No. 1
[…}The Ironclads, it seems idle to indicate, were denounced by Spain to the French government and the latter ordered their arrest [confiscation?]. But, on the other hand, the refusal of the English government to authorize the construction of an Ironclad, as Minister Errázuriz wished, revived the possible acquisition of the Arman Ironclads . Blest's reflection on this was very pertinent: "Is it worth acquiring ships that are said to be defective, and are not up to the day's advances? " Later, due to Arman's bankruptcy, the ships were sold to Turkey. […]
Paragraph No. 2
[…] this opportunity was used by Arnous de Rivière to lease the concession in May 1868, with which the exploitation was left in his hands, having to take over all the obligations of the Guanero contract. On July 24, 1868, Arman's bankruptcy was finally declared. The governments of Chile and Bolivia decided in December of that year to contract the exploitation of guano with Meiggs, in a similar way to that contained in the Arman contract. In another agreement between the Chilean government and Meiggs, the latter was obliged to pay the 400,000 pesos advanced to Arman by the Ironclads. The most remarkable thing about this very complex plot is that at the beginning of 1869 the baron sold his rights in the guano business to Meiggs. The termination of the Arman contract requested by both governments to the Chilean courts, concluded before the Council of State, which declared on June 3, 1870 that such termination was[…]
Paragraph No. 3
[…] the North American was satisfied through a very advantageous transaction for him, signed in Lima, which meant his departure from the Mejillones guano business . Arman's difficulties also affected the agreement with Chile of September 6, 1866, for the construction of the two Ironclads. The French businessman had subcontracted this work to the shipyard of which he was a partner, but, despite the fact that La Moneda ordered the Chilean diplomat Juan de Dios Merino Benavente to make payments to Arman of the quotas according to the state of progress of the works, the funds arrived to this shipyard only for the initiation of the works, concluding most of them in Bolivia in order to cover the obligations of the guano contract. With the bankruptcy of Arman, the Paris court authorized him to sell the ships and thus satisfy the payment of the debts .[…]
Paragraph No. 4
[…] This operation, in which Maximiano Errázuriz and Alberto Blest Gana also intervened, was very laborious because the ship's armament was not complete and due to the indispensable intervention of a third country that had to remove it. The projected purchase coincided, on the other hand, with the delayed construction of the Ironclads by Arman, and gave rise to an abundant correspondence between Blest and the ministers Covarrubias and Errázuriz on "element D", as the diplomat called the armored vessel, which his judgment was "too great and wasteful for us." The business, suspended and later reactivated, finally failed, among other reasons, due to the exorbitant commission that the agent of the intermediary wanted .[…]
La búsqueda de un orden republicano. 1826- 1881. Volumen 2. Segunda parte
2019
(Tlumaczenie google)
Paragraph No. 1
[…}The Ironclads, it seems idle to indicate, were denounced by Spain to the French government and the latter ordered their arrest [confiscation?]. But, on the other hand, the refusal of the English government to authorize the construction of an Ironclad, as Minister Errázuriz wished, revived the possible acquisition of the Arman Ironclads . Blest's reflection on this was very pertinent: "Is it worth acquiring ships that are said to be defective, and are not up to the day's advances? " Later, due to Arman's bankruptcy, the ships were sold to Turkey. […]
Paragraph No. 2
[…] this opportunity was used by Arnous de Rivière to lease the concession in May 1868, with which the exploitation was left in his hands, having to take over all the obligations of the Guanero contract. On July 24, 1868, Arman's bankruptcy was finally declared. The governments of Chile and Bolivia decided in December of that year to contract the exploitation of guano with Meiggs, in a similar way to that contained in the Arman contract. In another agreement between the Chilean government and Meiggs, the latter was obliged to pay the 400,000 pesos advanced to Arman by the Ironclads. The most remarkable thing about this very complex plot is that at the beginning of 1869 the baron sold his rights in the guano business to Meiggs. The termination of the Arman contract requested by both governments to the Chilean courts, concluded before the Council of State, which declared on June 3, 1870 that such termination was[…]
Paragraph No. 3
[…] the North American was satisfied through a very advantageous transaction for him, signed in Lima, which meant his departure from the Mejillones guano business . Arman's difficulties also affected the agreement with Chile of September 6, 1866, for the construction of the two Ironclads. The French businessman had subcontracted this work to the shipyard of which he was a partner, but, despite the fact that La Moneda ordered the Chilean diplomat Juan de Dios Merino Benavente to make payments to Arman of the quotas according to the state of progress of the works, the funds arrived to this shipyard only for the initiation of the works, concluding most of them in Bolivia in order to cover the obligations of the guano contract. With the bankruptcy of Arman, the Paris court authorized him to sell the ships and thus satisfy the payment of the debts .[…]
Paragraph No. 4
[…] This operation, in which Maximiano Errázuriz and Alberto Blest Gana also intervened, was very laborious because the ship's armament was not complete and due to the indispensable intervention of a third country that had to remove it. The projected purchase coincided, on the other hand, with the delayed construction of the Ironclads by Arman, and gave rise to an abundant correspondence between Blest and the ministers Covarrubias and Errázuriz on "element D", as the diplomat called the armored vessel, which his judgment was "too great and wasteful for us." The business, suspended and later reactivated, finally failed, among other reasons, due to the exorbitant commission that the agent of the intermediary wanted .[…]
Chincha Islands War = Wojna Chile i Peru z Hiszpanią
Sprawa zakupu i budowy 2 monitorow przez Armana jest
opisana w ksiazce str 123-124
Lucien Arman: un constructeur de navires à Bordeaux au XIXe siècle
Alain G. Clouet
2021
Poniewaz doszlo do procesu kompanii L'Ocean z Armanem,
sa sprawozdania w procesu w prasie francuskiej
opisana w ksiazce str 123-124
Lucien Arman: un constructeur de navires à Bordeaux au XIXe siècle
Alain G. Clouet
2021
Poniewaz doszlo do procesu kompanii L'Ocean z Armanem,
sa sprawozdania w procesu w prasie francuskiej
Chincha Islands War = Wojna Chile i Peru z Hiszpanią
Memoria de Marina 1867. Chile
Armamento que Tenian = Broń, jaką posiadali
Armamento que Tienen = Broń, którą posiadają
Armamento que Tenian = Broń, jaką posiadali
Armamento que Tienen = Broń, którą posiadają
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Chincha Islands War = Wojna Chile i Peru z Hiszpanią
Dzięki. Czyli zamówiono je jeszcze w 1866 roku i we Francji. Zastanawiam się, co w takim razie Chilijczycy kupili za te 400 tys. funtów w W. Brytanii? I czy w ogóle coś kupili (wojna się kończyła).
Chincha Islands War = Wojna Chile i Peru z Hiszpanią
Prawda, nigdzie nie napisałeś. Ale przynajmniej czytaj co zamieszczasz: "...the agreement with Chile of September 6, 1866, for the construction of the two Ironclads."Nigdzie nie napisalem 1866, ale w powiesciach historycznych nie jest to tak wazne.
Chincha Islands War = Wojna Chile i Peru z Hiszpanią
Nic tu nie ma o oficjalnym zamowieniu
Arman podpisal zobowiazania, ale nie on mogl podpisywac zaowienia w stoczni.
Chincha Islands War = Wojna Chile i Peru z Hiszpanią
Korweta ABTAO
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